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nacrabat

Weta tri

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Saw one of the Strand in Townsville a couple of weekends ago! An adult and two smaller children was sailing it. Seemed to be transported in a "normal" box trailer.

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6 Weta attended the Jervis Bay Regatta over the weekend (5-6 October 2013).

Sailed one-up with an experienced skipper, they really boogied off wind and finished between Hobie 16s and Paper Tigers around the course.

Sailed two-up with inexperienced sailors, they were at the back of the fleet

We welcomed a Weta trimaran to our fleet at Wallagoot Lake this season.

 

I wa supplied yardsticks of supplied of 84.1 (1-up) and 91.4 (2-up) by the NSW Weta distributor, but think these are too low.
I'd suggest 88 (1-up); the same as super-sloop Maricat, and 92 (2-up), the same as a Maricat sloop (2-up).
During the JB Regatta, they were all on 90, regardless of crew numbers.

 

Anyone else have comments on their yardstick?

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Internationally they are marketed as the same as Hobie 16, the people selling them quote that they are the same speed as a Hobie 16 so 84 is generous in both configurations

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On the list of Portsmouth yardsticks, multihull (inactive) is Weta Tri Slp w/gennaker 78.5
http://offshore.ussailing.org/Portsmouth_Yardstick/Current_Tables/Multihull_Classes-Inactive.htm
In their multihull active classes are Hobie 16; 76.0, and Hobie 14; 86.4

 

These compare to yachting Vic Yardsticks 12-13, Hobie 16; 83 and Hobie 14; 93.5

With doing complex maths, I can see both are 10 points different, and the Weta is 2.5 more than Hobie 16.
Using that guide, I'd say the Aus equivalent of the Portsmouth yardstick for Weta is 85.5, and assume that's for 1-up.
YV have a correction factor for sloop rigged cat sailed 1-up, -4.5%
Assuming the reverse applies, Weta 2-up would be 85.5 + 4.5% = 89.5

 

However, as I said above, seeing them in action makes me think they're not that quick. Thanks to Glenn the NSW dealer for chasing up info for me. Will provide an update if I receive one.

Curious to read this report on the weekend's Jervis Bay Regatta:

"Saturday was a warm and shifty offshore wind of about 10-18 knots with flat water, perfect Weta weather. Chris took out Glenn Marney’s kids Issac and younger brother Jack, who were stoked to win a race with Issac steering and Chris playing tactician." From: http://www.wetamarine.com/about/news/558-big-fun-at-jervis-bay
All the Wetas finished minutes behind the Hobie 16s and Paper Tigers, so they came 5th, but were the first Weta home.

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I've invited Glenn the NSW Weta dealer to join in this discussion. his reply

"Yes Weta is based on the south coast . i live in Nowra and sell from there , were also in QLD & VIC service the  ACT  + TAS and there is a dealer in WA"

 

Some more comments on yardstick:

 

From the British Weta Class:

"it ought to be comparable with the Hobie 14", from http://weta.org.uk/page11.html

The Koonawarra yardsticks for Hobie 14 are 93, or 88 (Turbo)

 

From unknown correspondent:
"I think realistic numbers for the Weta would be:

Singlehanded:  93/94
Doublehanded: 100/101"

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Based on all the info available, my suggestion for Weta Yardstick is 88 (1-up) and 93 (2-up).

This seems consistent with the UK comparison to Hobie 14s, and with the performance we saw at Jervis Bay.

Sailed 1-up, the Weta was able to get past Paper Tigers on the kite run, and hold that lead to the finish: so a yardstick lower than a PT seems right.

Sailed 2-up, the did not at any point get in front of us, so a yardstick bigger than PT seems right also.

I'll be added those figures to our list of Cat yardsticks used at Wallagoot Lake, and recommend them to other clubs. If anyone has timed race data that suggests otherwise, please update this discussion.

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I've spent a lot of time on a Weta, if you get some proper wind the Weta will take all prizes if they have a competent crew with those yardsticks. Don't tell VYC yardstick people those figures they have fkd it up enough for us bigger boats anyway

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A yardstick needs to take into account all wind conditions that we race in.

If these figures are too high in "some proper wind", would they be balanced by Weta performance in light winds?

Aside from that, what we saw at Jervis Bay in 15knot winds was the lead Weta not able catch well sailed Hobie 16s, but finishing ahead of the Paper Tigers

That lead Weta was sailed by Chris Kitchen, who won the West Coast Champs filmed below.

Fair enough though; one race is not adequate data to base a yardstick on, and we don't even have the times for that one.

 

Here's some fresh video of Weta racing, from  the "Multihull Invitational, Richmond Yacht Club, September 21-22, 2013" West Coast USA:

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93 for 2 up makes the weta a very expensive slow boat, are you really saying with 2 on it in 15 kts it will only comfortably beat an Arafura cadet or Hobie 14 without a jib but will be close to some other 14 ft cats.

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Here's the suggested Weta yardstick in context with similar boats:

1-up multihull:

Nacra 430 sloop (with spinnaker) 84

Nacra 14square 84.5
Windrush (1-up supersloop) 87
Weta trimaran (1-up) 88
Maricat (1-up supersloop) 88
Paper Tiger (1-up) 92
Hobie 14 (cat rig 1-up) 93
WIndrush (cat rig 1-up) 94
Maricat (cat rig 1-up) 94

 

2-up multihulls
Weta Trimaran (2-up) 93
Hobie 14 (2-up sloop) 93
Maricat (2-up sloop) 94
Windrush (2-up sloop) 94
Arafura 113

 

I haven't obtained accurate prices, but my understanding is that any of these boats new are around $15,000, and the Weta is similarly priced.

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Some prices

New Maricat, cat rig $10500, Sloop $11700

New Nacra 430 with spin etc $13990

New Nacra 350 sport $8990

In the American threads they continually tell us how they are nearly the same speed as the Hobie 16, it is marketed as the same as the Hobie 16's they even have Hobie 16's in the background of some of their promo video's. In my opinion the Aus boats should have to race for a while at the current rating so that the Australian skippers build up their skills to match the Americans or use their race results over time to build a proper handicap. The current way of guessing and making up handicaps based on probable mathematics and gut feel is absolutely disgraceful

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madaboutcats, I'm a Club Secretary going out of my way to consult with the wider sailing community in order to derive a relevant yardstick for a new boat at our club. This is "absolutely disgraceful"?

I've obtained info from the local dealer, who has contacted his international contacts. I'm doing this because the class is not yet listed on any Australia yardstick list. The convenor of a well known catamaran yardstick list tells me "When faced with limited knowledge about particular classes, we have tried to do a best guess and then revise it over time as more results come to hand."

If you have any relevant data to share, please go ahead.

 

So far, you're the only source I've found citing Weta as similar to Hobie 16, and you fail to provide any link to give your information credibility.

Here are some contrary opinions:

"it ought to be comparable with the Hobie 14", from http://weta.org.uk/page11.html

"is noticeably slower than Hobie 16, at any point of sail", from crobiecat at http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20742

"if the course has any major reaching legs in it or the course has long legs the h16 has the ability to walk away from the weta", from http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Weta-Trimarans/conversations/topics/1180

"At our last years regatta a H14 and several H16's smoked the Weta" from 16nut at http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=201732

"I've had both for 4 years and have done a lot of comparisons... well sailed 15-16' trapeze racing cats are going to walk away from the 14' weta with their much bigger upwind and reaching sails" eric e at http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=150130

"they don't compare to a Hobie 16 or any fast cat around a triangular course"  from MADABOUTCATS at http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=150130  Was that you?!!

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Yep that's me and if you read that thread they quote 14 knots boat speed in mid teens wind, keeping up with Hobie 16's, sailing the Weta in wind that other cats can't go out in and sailing in 37 knots are they all exaggerating?

The absolutely disgraceful bit was referring to the handicap system in general, our racing is getting stuffed up by dodgy handicaps, I keep travelling everywhere in our state to regattas but most of the bigger cats don't turn up, the Taipan 4.9's with kite are no longer racing in SA as they have the same rating as a F16, the F16's have no chance to beat a Mozzy with kite on handicap, the handicap on my Nacra 5.8 goes down by 5 if I hoist a kite even though a Nacra 5.8 with kite hasn't won anything in a very long time on handicap, none of that is based on results. The boats winning on handicap are Arrows, Yvonne's, Mosquito's but if the handicap was done correctly their handicap would be marching in. Do what you like with your club handicap but don't stuff up the regatta handicaps  

 

I have put a link to this thread on the Sailing Anarchy thread so that they can see what's happening as well

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We had two Wetas turn up at our season opening regatta in August and based on best guess we placed them in the medium speed mono fleet on a yardstick of 100. That was too fast in light air and too slow in medium - 12 to 14. On the basis of observation over 5 races I thought about 95 would be OK. I have now formally asked YV for an opinion. As they now use a measurement system for catamarans and the Weta is obviously a tri, the formula doesn't work. They have analysed performance results from UK and Europe against dinghies and suggested a tentative 94 one up and 96 two up. They don't intend at this stage to publish those numbers in the catamaran list for obvious reasons but would welcome performance data against cats so a more reliable estimate can be made.

BTW I think YV should be applauded for the efforts they are making to modernize the yardstick methodology. The performance based system was clearly not working for many reasons, not the least of which was the lack of clubs and classes sending in data. The measurement system solves that problem but there are many others when boats are configured in ways not planned in their original design. The Nacra 5.8 with kite is a good example. I'm certainly puzzled by some of the new numbers but I believe measurement is a better system over time. It's almost impossible to rate the many types of boats we have sailing in small numbers in pockets all over the country on a performance basis. Anyone who thinks otherwise should try to do it!!!!

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Hey Tony,

Some input from the Texas Weta Fleet:

 

We've found that we are a better "fit" sailing in mixed portsmouth centerboard rather that mixed multihulls.  That is until we get enough boats one the line for one design starts (5-6+).  It took a season to get the different clubs we race at to get past the "you're a multihull, you sail with the cats" attitude, but 2 years later it's now just normal for us Weta sailors to be in with the portsmouth centerboard fleet and have never regretted it.  Having sailed both catamarans and centerboards, the Weta sail and "feels" more like a board boat. 

 

Here locally there are many more centerboard regattas than cat regattas which also gives us more racing action.  For me personally, I would rather sail with more boats, rather than a few cats at irregular intervals.  I looked at your Division 2 fleet and I believe the Weta would fit right in as long as everyone can get past the "it's a multihull".  Remember, more boats, more fun!

 

As far as the 78.5 that we use here,  I have a few times corrected out first in 18+kt wind in the centerboard fleet.  In light winds, forget it, we still get 78.5, as other boats like the Contender and 505 get a wind rating. 

 

Good Luck!

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Well that seems to have taken the wind out of the Weta sails now they are sailing on dinghy ratings my apologies, I'm dropping out of this discussion and I'll save general handicaps for another thread

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Well that seems to have taken the wind out of the Weta sails now they are sailing on dinghy ratings my apologies, I'm dropping out of this discussion and I'll save general handicaps for another thread

 

US Sailing's Basic Portsmouth Number or D-PN allows for a standard handicap system across different types of boats sailed on the same course.  Therefore an 80 D-PN rated dinghy is theoretically just as fast as an 80 D-PN rated catamaran.

 

This assumes that (copied directly from the US Sailing "How to Use Portsmouth Ratings")

    *      That each boat placing first in each class was sailed to its true potential by a perfect crew according to flawless strategy;

 

    *      That all boats sailed the same course, experienced the same wind/water conditions and degree of interference of clear air;

 

    *      That all one-design boats conform to class specifications and rules, and use sails specified by the class; and

   

    *      That boats with multiple sail inventories (genoas, spinnakers, etc.) utilize the proper sails for the wind conditions and legs of the course. 

In addition (again directly from the US Sailing "How to Use Portsmouth Ratings")

 

"Courses for handicap races should include fairly equal amounts of beating, reaching and running. Courses can be combinations of triangular, modified Gold Cup, Olympic,

and windward-leeward."

 

And since you are so familiar with general handicaps, you already know, (once again directly from the US Sailing "How to Use Porstmouth Ratings")

 

For Best Results and Fair Handicapping:

Group boats into fleets by handicaps, if desired. Look for clusters of boats with similar D-PNs.

 

So it really makes no difference whether the Weta's 78.5 D-PN rating is applied in the multihull fleet or the dinghy fleet.  I stand by my record that the 78.5 D-PN rating is fair in Beaufort 5+ (17-21kts) assuming the above US Sailing info.

 

I would suggest further reading here, before you proceed to the other general handicap threads.

 

KB

 

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KB: do you agree the Weta's 78.5 D-PN rating is equal to a Yachting Victoria Yardstick of 85.5, based on comparisons with the Hobie yardsticks?

If this rating is for 1-up Weta in 17-21knots, do you agree 88 is a reasonable figure to cover all wind conditions?

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Hey Tony,

If it is one Weta, at one club, just sort it out with club handicaps.

It is highly unlikely one small club is going to have the National champions in all the classes competing - this is what performance yardsticks are based.

There are probably only half a dozen laser sailors who can race at 112.5 - but because that is the yardstick, do you still apply it at club level? Most lasers at clubs would be lucky to be at 120, and that is being generous.

Have a good old season rolling handicap that adjusts for race wins and big losses, and it will average itself out over the season. Unless you are racing for sheep stations, that is the fairest 'man-on-man' accounting you can hope for.

Rohan.

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> because that is the yardstick, do you still apply it at club level?

Yes. Even to my 1976 vintage Laser radial, 24877 "Firefly". We have seperate pointscore (yardstick based) and handicap series.

The point in discussing it here is that this is an issue facing all of our clubs, so it would be great to achieve agreement on this issue.

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