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tonyquoll

2015 yardsticks

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The Yachting Victoria Yardsticks are as contentious as ever, with changes, ommissions and errors.
The list is here: http://vic.yachting.org.au/get_file.cgi?id=3363604

Comparing them to the 2012-13 yardsticks, some classes have had substantial changes. For example:

Arafura 113, up from 108

Arrow 89.5, up from 89 (despite new masts and sails making the class faster)
F14 deleted, was 72
Maricat 4.3 Cat 94.5, 1 up: +2 for pre Foam Sandwich Hulls. Up from 94, 1 up: -2 for Foam Sandwich Hulls

Mosquito cat (Mk1) 83.5, up from 83

Mosquito sloop (MkII) 81.5, down from 82

Paper Tiger 92.5, up from 91.5 (despite more carbon bits making boats faster)
 

Previously a Paper Tiger and foam-hull Maricat (cat rigged) had the same yardstick, which was verified by the Koonawarra yardsticks for 14' cats: http://www.koonawarrabaysc.org.au/images/yardsticks.pdf

Around the courses, this seemed correct. PTs could tack faster and get upwind quicker, but the bigger sail on the Mari saw them catch up again downwind.
Typically a boat sailed cat-rigged 1-up has the same yardstick as one sailed sloop-rigged 2-up. This because the extra sail area of the jib is negated by the extra weight of the crew. So do we assume that a cat-rigged Mosquito MkII should be 81.5, and a sloop-rigged Mk1 be 83.5?
Since F14 is no  longer listed, one becomes obliged to look back at older tables to find a number.

The 12-13 yardsticks listed changes to rigs, including:
Reduction in crew size -2.0%

Sloop rigged cat sailed 1 up -4.5%
These were ommitted from the 14-15 yardsticks, so at one club which has light winds, there are boats like Nacra 5.8, Hobie 18 and Tornado being sailed 1-up with no change to yardstick.

I contacted the relevant authority, drawing attention to the Koonawarra Yardsticks and my own observations of racing in cat classes at regattas over the past decade. I asked what was the basis for increasing maricats by 2.5 points?
The response included:
"To support the Yachting Victoria "performance" based analysis, all class yardsticks listed are also assessed (for confirmation) under the Small Catamaran Handicap Rating System (SCHRS), which is the ISAF preferred method of calculating "Ratings" for small OTB Catamarans.
"The required SCHRS Measurement data has been accurately obtained for all Australian classes and input to the Ratings formulae, then converted to a Yachting Victoria yardstick. Refer to the Yachting Victoria Catamaran Table documentation for further details.
"The following SCHRS converted Yachting Victoria yardsticks are shown for relevant classes below:
Maricat 4.3 Cat (foam):    95.5

Windrush 14 (pin head):  94.5

Paper Tiger:                        94"
There were also impolite comments about the Koonawarra yardsticks and my own sailing which I'll not repeat here. Although the guy argued about how important race data was, this data was ignored in favour of these speculative calculations to change the Mari yardstick. Even there, his data says Mari is 1.5 slower than PT, but the VY yardstick is 2 points different.

My view is that these yardsticks cannot be strictly applied. The changes to rig listed in 2012 should still be used. Where the figure is wrong, a correct one should be substituted.
At Wallagoot, we've mixed up YV, Koonawarra, and come up with some other numbers: http://wlbc.org.au/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/cat-yardsticks.doc

Supposing a boat doesn't strictly comply with class rules, then the yardstick should be adjusted to a fair figure. For example a Paper Tiger with a loose foot sail would not change, as it offers no performance advantage. An Arrow with square-top and other updates might drop to 87.5

 

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Hi Tony, 

 

Looks like we still have a few months until the 2015-2016 ratings come out. I truly hope they take onboard the comments that were made last season about some of their ratings. the F18 community was not at all pleased by splitting the class and giving handicaps to older designs like the hobie tiger ans ahpc capricorn.

 

The entire system is derived from the F18's as the zero boat. which is a pretty fair call, they are already the scratch boat in most handicap systems for catamarans in the world for good reason.  the thing of it is F18's sail almost exclusively windward leeward courses for racing with some distance racing thrown in.  never on a triangle course.  for the system to work correctly everyone would need to be sailing windward leeward courses. as we know most 14 footers are not very exciting on a DDW run so tend to sail triangle courses.  

 

To my mind the whole system is flawed because of this fact.

 

The “base” class for conversion of SCHRS ratings to Yachting Victoria Yardsticks remains the F18. The F18 class is well represented in large numbers with reliable, validated mixed fleet race data across Europe, USA, UK and Australia. The F18 therefore represents an ideal class to standardize on for conversion between various yardstick systems. However, the F18 class continues to evolve, both from a design perspective as well as through the ability of experienced crews to drive the boat harder and faster than in previous seasons. To reflect these developments, and to maintain relativity with Yachting Victoria dinghy class yardsticks, the F18 yardstick has been adjusted downwards by 1 yardstick point to 66.5. All other catamaran yardsticks have not moved as a result of this re-alignment of the F18 yardstick, unless determined otherwise by recent performance data or measurement data updated as a result of class specifications/rules revisions.

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But they have to start somewhere and the most populous class is probably a good place.

 

Allowing for older boats is, I think fine (particularly since I do have an older boat).  Clearly sailing in an F18 event the main 'prize' is taken by the first boat over the line irrespective of how much he's paid to get his boat to that condition, a handicap result also makes sense because it keeps others interested.  I notice the A's do this in their Nationals and include age ratings as well.

 

If you sail boats on different courses then the ability to adjust positions using any handicap system is useless so one course for the W/L guys and one for the rest is fine just as long as adjustments are made for each course.  Speer Point Anzac was a good example, they rated the big cats (with one separate class for the numerous Nacra's) and then the other cats and then the mono's.

 

It's also a very inexact science and has been an issue for as long as I've been sailing (since the 70's).

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When trying to convert yardsticks from overseas, I use the Hobie14 and Hobie 16 to compare data. Those boats have been around for 40 years, have never changed, and there's some in every country.
It would make sense to me to have seperate tables for windward - leeward boats (yardstick less than 84?) and those who sail triangles.

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But they have to start somewhere and the most populous class is probably a good place.

 

Allowing for older boats is, I think fine (particularly since I do have an older boat).  Clearly sailing in an F18 event the main 'prize' is taken by the first boat over the line irrespective of how much he's paid to get his boat to that condition, a handicap result also makes sense because it keeps others interested.  I notice the A's do this in their Nationals and include age ratings as well.

 

If you sail boats on different courses then the ability to adjust positions using any handicap system is useless so one course for the W/L guys and one for the rest is fine just as long as adjustments are made for each course.  Speer Point Anzac was a good example, they rated the big cats (with one separate class for the numerous Nacra's) and then the other cats and then the mono's.

 

It's also a very inexact science and has been an issue for as long as I've been sailing (since the 70's).

 So you are saying that sweet 16 is a run of the mill old mark 1,  you are a funny boy James!

Apart from that I'm not looking to get involved.

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Interesting point Phil.  However, Sweet 16 WAS a gun boat, I'm not sure if you can say it is now.  

 

My understanding is that Merlo had it sorted by Kershy who split the decks off and cleaned up inside, reset the decks, faired and painted the hulls.  The 'new' mast that Brenton now uses was used.

 

Now, in it's present form there are quite a few areas where damage has been repaired in a less than professional way so I'm not sure what it looks like inside.  The mast is now the ribbed version for sloop rigging which is not as flexible as the lighter cat rigged mast.  The rudders have been replaced and while the blades are good I've had to do the second pivot hole thing plus I'm still not sure if the alignment is right - Darcy gave it some love recently which has helped but then there is the Ackerman effect which will certainly have changed when the 'new' rudder stocks were installed.  It is also crying out for another paint job.

 

I was well aware that I had a big reputation to live up to and I'm not doing it very well so the above is my way of explaining my generally crap performance.  Remember that Jason used to give Mick a race - that won't happen with me!

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Ok I'll butt in...

Sweet 16 is not actually a Maricat 4.3 ...... It is a Maricat 14ft.

Different shape, different length .....but we will still let you play Jim !!

I like the VYC handicap for Foam cat rigged Maris at 94.5 !

And 96.5 for a well sailed glass Mari is rather generous.

I don't like the VYC for Foam Supersloop at 86.5

This low handicap for the Foam SS reflects the very high standard at the front of the fleet by Mick, Mark and others in recent years.

I'm not sure I understand 89.5 for an Arrow.....a well sailed arrow will just about out sail every other 14ft cat.

A Windy SS should be about the same as a Mari SS but maybe not 86.5.

I don't think the Nacra 430 at 92 reflects the boat but more the small size of the fleet.

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I am just happy to have some competition this year. New state champion, new national champion. This means the competition in the class has got much better. This will also reflect on our yardsticks. I love the class and I love sailing. You are always welcome Jimbo, even on the original sweet16

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So Rodney, 

 

Ok I'll butt in...

Sweet 16 is not actually a Maricat 4.3 ...... It is a Maricat 14ft.

 

 

So Mr Google says:

 

4.3m = 14.1076115 feet (14 feet 1 19/64 inch)

14ft = 4.2672 metres

 

So there's an inch and nineteen sixyfourths in it - I've been diddled!!

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Which ever way you look at yardsticks there is bound to be someone not happy, the mari guys used to have the windy guys wingeing when we were on 88 and they were on 87.  Then they got square tops, our yardstick dropped to 86.5, but their yardstick did not change.and they stopped wingeing.  As Rod says the mari foam SS yardstick has mainly dropped to 86.5 because of the better sailing skills of the sailors sailing in that confirguation, not that the boats have changed, which they have'nt.  The only difference with us is there are more mari's being sailed with trap now then a few years ago.  Trap was always allowed back then just no one used it.  The sails are still the same, the rig is still the same, the boat is still built to the design weight.  The only thing to really change is the boat is being sailed by better sailors.  With Colecliffes Breadons and others not sailing cat rigged as much (in the bigger regattas) that yardstick has increased.  Really one way to look at it, is to get people to sail in your class you need a shit (meaning High) yardstick, that way when you go to a regatta you will have a head start on winning the regatta against a boat with a low yardstick.  I suppose the arrows are cheering their tits off as they now have a fast light boat with square top sails made of the latest material, with a trapeze and also a centerboard, they have a zippy boat that they can sail together in a class no probs, and when they race on yardstick against other 14 super sloops they have a headstart against the other SSs with a lower yardstick.  You can only sail it for what it is on the day.

I  knew that all I had to do was stay on the windies arse the whole race, finish with them and I'd beat them on yardstick by a minute.  Those days are gone, Oh well.

 

Phil

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